To 1080p, or not to 1080p...

So here's the deal, I currently do the majority of my console gaming on this:

That's a Panasonic Viera TX-26LXD60 from 2006 (got it when the Wii came out ). It's been a great TV, and is particularly good for gaming as the response time is just 8ms. The only drawback (other than being a bit on the small side) is the fact that it's HD Ready, so limited to 720p.

Fast forward to today, and I'm now thinking I should upgrade to a screen that's not only bigger, but also full HD.

But... having done a bit of googling, it seems that not all is as it seems when it comes to console gaming and 1080p.

Now I'm no expert on any of this (hence the thread ), so please correct me if I'm wrong. However, from what I can gather, the only Wii U games to feature a native 1080p resolution are Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate and Wind Waker HD (with Super Smash Bros. to join them next month).

Just 3 games?! It appears to be equally rare on the PS3, I went through a list of games I own for that, none of them are over 720p!

So here's my question, and the main reason for this thread...

Is the upscaling to 1080p on PS3/Wii U worth getting a new TV for?

I'm guessing it ain't, but would like to hear from anyone that has experience with both settings, see what they think.

Keep in mind that I do plan to purchase a PS4 soonish (whenever games like Tomorrow Children and RIME start to come out) and it looks like true 1080p is much more common on that.

Here's a TV I've been eyeing:

Sony KDL42W705B

It's supposedly a pretty decent set to game on, response time is 14ms (almost double that of my current TV, but I'm assuming the difference will be negligible ).

Anyway, looking forward to hearing what N-E has to say on this matter.

: peace:

Future proof!

sure the WiiU has few games same problem with the PS3, but good tV's upscale a little, which is often barely noticable but its added extra....now on that basis you just don't need a 1080p tv....

However you're getting a PS4.....1080p is noticeably different with the PS4, even games that are native 900p are noticeably better and games will just continue to be at this level so you will eventually want that level of quality availiable on your TV, so if you're upgrading get a good TV

hate to potentially throw a spanner in this, have you considered refresh rates and TV screen types in what you are looking for? My "main" tv is an LG 3D plasma, with a very high resolution and 800hz refresh rate, so has amazingly smooth motion....my second TV which is the gaming one is a 100hz LED Tv which has an even higher resolution and the difference in clarity is noticable...except under motion where the plasma offers the better quality...

Tv shopping is far harder than all that mattered was size

In my opinion, 1080p is worth it, although perhaps that's just psychological. There may not be many retail games at that resolution, but there might be more on the eShop. Plus I occasionally run a BluRay through my TV and it's satisfying when "1080p" appears, just to know I'm seeing it at full rez.

Now personally I would sacrifice size for resolution. I upgraded from 28" 576i (or whatever PAL was at the time) to 40" 1080p. That's a little bit too big, in my opinion. If I was doing it again I'd go for 1080p and 32".

If I didn't already have one I'd get a 1080p TV just to make the most of modern broadcast & streaming standards, to be honest.

Cheers for the replies.

hate to potentially throw a spanner in this, have you considered refresh rates and TV screen types in what you are looking for? My "main" tv is an LG 3D plasma, with a very high resolution and 800hz refresh rate, so has amazingly smooth motion....my second TV which is the gaming one is a 100hz LED Tv which has an even higher resolution and the difference in clarity is noticable...except under motion where the plasma offers the better quality...

 

Tv shopping is far harder than all that mattered was size

By the way, what's the difference in resolution between your LG plasma and the LED you use for gaming?

In my opinion, 1080p is worth it, although perhaps that's just psychological. There may not be many retail games at that resolution, but there might be more on the eShop. Plus I occasionally run a BluRay through my TV and it's satisfying when "1080p" appears, just to know I'm seeing it at full rez.

I definitely wouldn't care just knowing something is 1080p, unless there was a substantial and noticeable increase in quality.

Now personally I would sacrifice size for resolution. I upgraded from 28" 576i (or whatever PAL was at the time) to 40" 1080p. That's a little bit too big, in my opinion. If I was doing it again I'd go for 1080p and 32".

If I didn't already have one I'd get a 1080p TV just to make the most of modern broadcast & streaming standards, to be honest.

So yeah, I'm really just interested in the difference between 720 and 1080p, from a gaming standpoint.

: peace:

I'd say it's worth it because 720p TVs aren't actually native 720p resolution anyway (they're always 1366 x 768, so you're getting uneven scaling anyway).

The Wii U has a fantastic upscaler, far better than the one in the PS3 or 360 and your 720p games will certainly look better on a 1080p display, because you can allow the Wii U to do the scaling for you and it scales evenly.

Also another thing to consider is that all VC games on Wii U run in 1080p, so (while it probably won't be all that noticeable TBH and chances are that you probably wont really care), your VC games will look better too as they can be mapped perfectly pixel for pixel on a 1080p display

There are also a good few other 1080p games on Wii U as well, like Mighty Switch Force HD, Scribblenauts Unlimited, Skylanders Giants (ok you probably don't care about that one), EDGE, RUSH, Scram Kitty, NES Remix 1 & 2 (duh!) and quite a lot of other eShop titles (I believe Pullblox World is another).

Not to mention that there's also Blurays as well (though you say you don't watch much TV, Blu-rays/DVDs may well be a different story).

To be honest though, I don't really see 1080p as that big a deal for Wii U games in general though. At least as far as Nintendo's own 1st party titles go, all of their 720p games have impeccable image quality with almost no jaggies anyway. I'm not sure how they do it, but their 720p games look far cleaner, sharper and jaggy free than PS360 720p games do on my TV! Even switching back and forth between the two Resident Evil Revelations demos on PS3 and Wii U (which I did at the time when the demo first came out), the Wii U looked noticeably sharper free of jaggies/texture shimmering, despite running in the same resolution!

Still, I'd say it's worth it though cause it's going to be a net positive even if you're not playing 1080p games on there anyway!

One thing to consider though is input lag though (it's not the same thing as response time). It's not something widely publicised, but it can be a big issue for playing games though!

Before you buy any TV, make certain that you check the TV on this site below...

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/

They always do input lag tests on every TV they review. You'll ideally want one with the lowest input lag possible obviously and ideally something at least around 16-20ms range (my living room TV has an input lag of 20ms and feels perfectly synced with the Gamepad. It's low enough to the point where I can't notice it at all - my bedroom TV has an input lag of 16ms and I can't feel any difference so 16-20ms is what you're looking for!).

Before I found out about that site, I had a different Samsung TV and the input lag was beyond horrible! I checked online and it turned out to have an input lag of about 66ms or thereabouts! It felt like moving through treacle! You could see the Wii Remote pointer cursor lagging behind my hand!!

That being said, TVs with really low input lag are not all that common. So it will narrow down your choices quite a lot. And ideally, you'll want a TV that can offer that 16-20ms range without having to turn on a separate "Game Mode" - what that does is turn off all picture processing to speed up the display and reduce input lag, but it makes the picture quality awful and usually takes away your ability to change even basic settings like sharpness or even contrast! Game Mode is very much a band aid, last ditch attempt solution in my mind. Avoid it unless you absolutely have to.

And also there's one more thing to consider... It's a bit of a dirty little secret so to speak but you'll often find that even with the same model of TV, they actually use different panels when they change in size. I remember reading about one TV which supposedly was the dogs bollocks, low input lag, great picture quality etc, but that only applied to the smallest 32" model, while the bigger ones were worse quality and had globs of input lag! (I think it was the small one anyway, might've been the biggest one, but either way, it was only one size!). So yeah, Do your Research = Don't get Done

Sorry if it comes across as super nerdy/nit picky, but I've made some regretful choices a long time ago and I wouldn't want you to fall foul of the input lag monster. It really does ruin your game experience completely and it's not an obvious and well known thing. If there's a TV which you aren't completely certain about either, https://www.avforums.com/forums/ is an impeccable resource for more detailed info about specific TVs (or indeed surround systems and everything else under the sun) - the guys on there are brilliant and know their stuff far better than even I do : peace: (oh and make sure you listen to all their advice about calibration and picture settings and whatnot - they even know how to find all the hidden service mode options that normally only official Samsung/Sony/LG/Whatever staff can access and they can often really improve your picture quality massively!)

It was thanks to them that I learnt how to calibrate my TV properly and various tips and stuff, like how sharpness on all LCD TVs is artificial and should always be turned down to zero for HD content no matter what (SD content is different though, since the source quality is poor anyway).

Anyway, if you got through that wall of text...

TLDR, go for it! (and do your damn homework! :awesome: )

I'd say it's worth it because 720p TVs aren't actually native 720p resolution anyway (they're always 1366 x 768, so you're getting uneven scaling anyway).

Can't believe I didn't realise that before.

I so should have twigged, seeing as I'm always capturing Wii U footage and seeing it say 1280 x 720.

One thing to consider though is input lag though (it's not the same thing as response time). It's not something widely publicised, but it can be a big issue for playing games though!

Before you buy any TV, make certain that you check the TV on this site below...

 

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/

 

They always do input lag tests on every TV they review. You'll ideally want one with the lowest input lag possible obviously and ideally something at least around 16-20ms range (my living room TV has an input lag of 20ms and feels perfectly synced with the Gamepad. It's low enough to the point where I can't notice it at all - my bedroom TV has an input lag of 16ms and I can't feel any difference so 16-20ms is what you're looking for!).

It's one of the reasons I'm interested in that Sony I mentioned in the opening post.

Here's what they say about it in their review:

Boasting the lowest input lag we’ve ever recorded, and also full 4:4:4 reproduction in [Game] mode, the Sony 42″ W7 is an ideal large-sized display for both console and PC gamers. Our Leo Bodnar input lag tester gave a reading of 13.5ms, eclipsing the previous best of 14.6ms set by another Sony HDTV, the KDL42W653.

What do you reckon, sounds like a winner, no?

Anyway, if you got through that wall of text...

 

 

TLDR, go for it! (and do your damn homework! :awesome: )

Oh... I thought they were the same thing. What the hell is response time then?

Response time is basically how fast the screen refreshes the LCD panel. The lower the response time, the less ghosting/motion blur you see on moving objects. Basically, think of the original GB screen and how you used to have a really obvious after image of anything that moved and that's an example of a display with a very low response time (you can also see this emulated on GB VC games on the 3DS when you enable the green tint filter - the B&W image doesn't emulate the motion blur though, because it's just displaying the raw game image, so it's a really good example of what I'm talking about actually! Green filter = low response time, B&W = high response time)

Input lag however is the time it takes for an action to be performed when you press a button in a game, to when you actually see the action be performed. It's something that is unique to HDTVs because of all the processing that they do - old school CRTs are completely lag free, but modern displays sadly are not.

These things are both something that loads of people get confused for each other, so you're not stupid for thinking that and you're far from alone for thinking so! It's the TV manufacturer's fault for not being clear about this stuff and for making it an issue in the first place (Really it's ridiculous that you should have to do so much damn research these days to avoid this stupid issue! )

Yeah, I've checked out that site before.

It's one of the reasons I'm interested in that Sony I mentioned in the opening post.

Here's what they say about it in their review:

 

What do you reckon, sounds like a winner, no?

Sounds very promising, but all the tests they did in that review only mention the results in Game Mode, so be careful - it could have loads of input lag when Game Mode isn't enabled...

I'd recommend checking out to see if anyone has mentioned anything about the input lag when Game Mode isn't turned on on AV Forums (I'll see if I can have a quick check for you and see if I can gleam anything, but you might just have to ask - the forum is pretty active so you'll probably get some replies before long )

Edit: I found this couple of comments from a member called justaname that you might want to bear in mind (I think he's talking about the same TV as you, though he just mentions a "W7" TV...)

https://www.avforums.com/threads/sony-2014-w7-w8-1080p-edge-led-tv-owners-thread.1858674/page-135#post-20758318

Hello internet. I just picked up a Sony W7 specifically for gaming. heard from the internet the ms lag is like 13.5.

 

Anyway, I can't seem to find the Game Mode from the picture options. There's 'Standard, Vivid and Custom' but that's it. There's also a Film Mode but nothing about Game Mode.

 

What do I do? Have I been scammed? Thanks!

Ah thanks guys! Angels, it feels amazing. It's honestly like there's no input lag at all! I was upset at first before I found the mode 'cause the lag was noticeable and terrible but with game mode on it feels perfect. Picture quality is very good even with game mode on.

 

I'm so happy with this tv

 

thanks and all the best!

So that seems to imply that there is a noticeable difference between the two and you will get decreased image quality in Game Mode (that's gonna be the case for any TV you buy), but then again, I keep hearing good things about its image quality in Game Mode regardless (including full 4:4:4 colour reproduction, so that's a good sign), so it sounds like not all hope might be lost...

You might just have to ask though :p

I did indeed get through that wall of text, thanks a lot for all of that.

No wucking furries mate! : peace:

Response time is basically how fast the screen refreshes the LCD panel. The lower the response time, the less ghosting/motion blur you see on moving objects. Basically, think of the original GB screen and how you used to have a really obvious after image of anything that moved and that's an example of a display with a very low response time (you can also see this emulated on GB VC games on the 3DS when you enable the green tint filter - the B&W image doesn't emulate the motion blur though, because it's just displaying the raw game image, so it's a really good example of what I'm talking about actually! Green filter = low response time, B&W = high response time)

But now I'm wondering what the input lag is for my Panasonic TV then. Never noticed any lag though, so it must be pretty good in that regard.

Input lag however is the time it takes for an action to be performed when you press a button in a game, to when you actually see the action be performed. It's something that is unique to HDTVs because of all the processing that they do - old school CRTs are completely lag free, but modern displays sadly are not.

These things are both something that loads of people get confused for each other, so you're not stupid for thinking that and you're far from alone for thinking so! It's the TV manufacturer's fault for not being clear about this stuff and for making it an issue in the first place (Really it's ridiculous that you should have to do so much damn research these days to avoid this stupid issue! )

Sounds very promising, but all the tests they did in that review only mention the results in Game Mode, so be careful - it could have loads of input lag when Game Mode isn't enabled...

Furthermore, [Game] mode offers two presets, namely [Game-Standard] and [Game-Original], the latter of which can be configured to provide a less garish and more accurate colour palette for playing games on the Bravia KDL-42W705B.

Anyway, I shall do some more research, and try to check out the TV in the flesh at some point too.

But they do also mention how there are 2 game modes, and one of them can be configured:

Yeah I noticed that. It does sound good and much better than some other Game Modes I've seen (like I said before, I've seen some where you can't even change the contrast or even colour settings! So you're stuck at whatever horrible pre-set that they have on there!)

Overall the TV sounds very promising. I'd definitely shortlist it! (generally, it's always a good idea to have a few different models in mind and then decide between maybe just 2 or 3 of them)

Anyway, I shall do some more research, and try to check out the TV in the flesh at some point too.

That is ALWAYS the very best thing you can do! The best shops will let you actually hook up your own stuff and actually try it out for yourself. There's nothing that truly beats a hands on experience :awesome:

But yeah, I know it's really daunting and it's far more difficult and complicated than it really should be (at the end of the day, all you want to do is play a bloody game without having to worry about any of this crap after all! ), but I don't regret putting the time and effort into researching this stuff at all.

The results are always well worth it and always really interesting in of itself (you learn a lot!) I LOVE the TVs I have and am really happy I put the time and effort into getting the most out of them (and no, the irony of using them to play old NES/SNES/N64 games on them is not lost on me )

Interesting. Not heard that before, I'm always hearing how the bigger the screen the better for 1080p+.

In terms of resolution, that's true - 1080p looks great at 40". However, on a purely personal note, I didn't give enough thought to how I play console games. That is to say, I've got into the habit of kneeling in front of my television, much closer than when I'm just watching TV. For this, it's a little bit too big, but then if you like sitting back with a wireless pad it's a non-issue.

If I was doing it again I'd also do more research about input lag, as @Dcubed says. I'm afraid I just saw a good deal in a supermarket and bought it there and then.

In terms of resolution, that's true - 1080p looks great at 40". However, on a purely personal note, I didn't give enough thought to how I play console games. That is to say, I've got into the habit of kneeling in front of my television, much closer than when I'm just watching TV. For this, it's a little bit too big, but then if you like sitting back with a wireless pad it's a non-issue.

 

If I was doing it again I'd also do more research about input lag, as @Dcubed says. I'm afraid I just saw a good deal in a supermarket and bought it there and then.

The funny thing about HDTV input lag (and this is just a general rule of thumb thing I've noticed) is that high end displays tend to have more input lag than cheaper models, believe it or not!

It's far from a hard and fast rule, but it makes sense when you think about it. Cheaper TVs tend to do much less image processing, which in turn means less chance of introducing input lag.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule and this one is no exception. There are high end models with low input lag and elcheapo TVs with high input lag, but it's more common the other way around I find.

My current living room TV was decidedly "mid range" by 2012 standards, but it just happened to be perfect for me. It all just comes down to doing the research

As for the whole distance thing. I play on a 40' screen from roughly 6 feet away. I do notice the benefits of 1080p, but most Wii U games look fantastic and crystal clear, with virtually no visible jaggies, whether in 720 or 1080 anyway (TW101 is an odd exception though, very jaggy that game is!). PS360 games are a different story as they can look a bit blurry or noticably jagged. Wii/GCN games run through their own custom picture settings on my TV and I've got them generally looking good. Notceably blurry, but not too much (I find myself mentally ignoring it for the most part while playing), not too jagged either and surprisingly good looking too! Good art always shines through in the end anyway

N64 is... Well it's the N64. Only so much you can do there!

I will add that I personally wouldn't go for a Sony brand TV as I find for the price you can get a bigger TV with the same functions & image quality from other big brands like Panasonic or LG, even compared to the sale price. TBH even budget-brand TVs are solid enough these days thanks to the ubiquity of generic panel & digital component manufacture.

At the start of the 'HD Era' around when the Xbox 360 was released I bought a 23" White 1080i Samsung TV which I used up until a couple of years ago and that same TV is still going strong as I gave it to my brother.

Since a couple of years ago I bought a brand new Samsung 32" 1080p LED TV when it had just been brought out as I managed to get over £120 off it through various deals at work, the size of it is the absolute limit for my room but honestly? I've never looked back since. :awesome:

I haven't experienced any issues with input lag either. : peace:

I will add that I personally wouldn't go for a Sony brand TV as I find for the price you can get a bigger TV with the same functions & image quality from other big brands like Panasonic or LG, even compared to the sale price. TBH even budget-brand TVs are solid enough these days thanks to the ubiquity of generic panel & digital component manufacture.

But if you can point me in the direction of another 40-42" set that has at least 3 HDMI ports, an input lag of 25ms or less, and for under £500, then please do.

Since a couple of years ago I bought a brand new Samsung 32" 1080p LED TV when it had just been brought out as I managed to get over £120 off it through various deals at work, the size of it is the absolute limit for my room but honestly? I've never looked back since. :awesome:

 

I haven't experienced any issues with input lag either. : peace:

I will add that I personally wouldn't go for a Sony brand TV as I find for the price you can get a bigger TV with the same functions & image quality from other big brands like Panasonic or LG, even compared to the sale price. TBH even budget-brand TVs are solid enough these days thanks to the ubiquity of generic panel & digital component manufacture.

This view is now pretty much outdated (Sony used to be overpriced). However recently I bought a 42" KDL42W653 for £430 about 11 months ago with a 5 year warranty and for the price it couldn't be beaten. Its input lag is ridiculous levels of low and the form factor/thin bezel of the TV rocks. The picture itself is also great, with the TV essentially looking like it's off when it produces blacks. Add on top of that; in the future Sony are bringing their game streaming service to their Bravia range and it's a good shout. Can't recommend it enough.

This view is now pretty much outdated (Sony used to be overpriced). However recently I bought a 42" KDL42W653 for £430 about 11 months ago with a 5 year warranty and for the price it couldn't be beaten. Its input lag is ridiculous levels of low and the form factor/thin bezel of the TV rocks. The picture itself is also great, with the TV essentially looking like it's off when it produces blacks. Add on top of that; in the future Sony are bringing their game streaming service to their Bravia range and it's a good shout. Can't recommend it enough.

That's the predecessor to the TV I'm currently looking at buying.

Do you still get low input lag even outside of game mode? And is picture calibration possible in the game mode on that model too, if so, what's it like?

Nice.

That's the predecessor to the TV I'm currently looking at buying.

 

Do you still get low input lag even outside of game mode? And is picture calibration possible in the game mode on that model too, if so, what's it like?

The input lag for my W6 is pretty much non-existent on regular mode, and game mode has no visible drop in image quality.

Also out of the 154 TVs tested on HDTVTest, the TV you're looking at ranks #1, so you really can't get any better a gaming experience.

Do you use the Game Mode for that TV?

I did to begin with but not so much now, either way no input lag issues.

I haven't read the thread. I haven't read much beyond the model numbers.

But basically from that I am taking it you have a 26" 720p now compared to a potential consideration of a 42" 1080p? I'd upgrade for the size alone, TVs are pretty fucking dirty cheap these days compared to what they had been before, and tbh I think 1080's still got a lot of life considering how long 'HD Ready' has managed to continue. So yeah, 42" 1080p - what's the consider? I don't even know the tech side of it, I'm literally just considering that....well, what is there to go wrong with? 3D isn't going to be big, 4K is too far ahead to matter yet, up the size man, up the size. You'll struggle to go back to smaller, but we all gotta move on to bigger and better things don't we.

Tv shopping is far harder than all that mattered was size

I hear that brother. First non-CRT we got was in 2009, and *I* was the one tasked with finding/doing it! First time I've ever felt out of my depth with tech(still am on that front too tbh). So many things, LED, Plasma, OLED, 720, 1080, wat watty? In the end got a 1080p 40" Toshiba for £430, and I don't know if it was good or bad or anything but I never felt let down or owt. Plus I could play Xbox finally too! So that was nice. 2011 I got a 32" samsung 1080p series 5 for £250 that I had for my PC(not used that in the new place much tho) and then I was like 'wat why am I bothered' and ended up buying another 32" Hanspree 1080p for the gaming rooms/future proofing. Recently gone for another dirt cheap budget TV and whilst it has some strange quirks and no component in I'm still not really crying about too much! TVs are crazy now compared to what they were.

Cheers for the replies.

 

I've only just recently started thinking about getting a new TV to be honest, but yeah, there's quite a lot to consider.

By the way, what's the difference in resolution between your LG plasma and the LED you use for gaming?

I never answered this did i? i'll check tonight when i get in from work

So I finally decided to upgrade. Went with the 42" Sony in the end, and it is awesome! :awesome:

Even on the factory settings stuff looked pretty great, but after calibrating... wow.

Man, I should've done this a couple of years ago!

Wii U and PS3 games looks amazing on this screen, but it's also a shit-hot PC monitor. Actually contemplating ditching my old monitor now too, and just using the TV.

Anyway, huge thanks to everyone who posted in here.

: peace:

It's been a very interesting thread, with particular thanks to @Dcubed for explaining the difference between input lag and response rate. Although it's made me realise my TV is poor, at least I know what to look out for next time.

So I finally decided to upgrade. Went with the 42" Sony in the end, and it is awesome! :awesome:

Even on the factory settings stuff looked pretty great, but after calibrating... wow.

Man, I should've done this a couple of years ago!

 

Wii U and PS3 games looks amazing on this screen, but it's also a shit-hot PC monitor. Actually contemplating ditching my old monitor now too, and just using the TV.

 

Anyway, huge thanks to everyone who posted in here.

: peace:

Told you it would all be worth the effort and that the upgrade would be well worth it

Glad you found a great one in the end! It's always a brilliant feeling when you finally get it set up and there are no stupid problems you have to worry about like input lag, or any sort of weird picture problems. And then once you've calibrated and get everything looking the very best it can, you can just kick back and enjoy without any worries, knowing that you're getting the very most out of your games/movies etc!